Ant
Novice
Posts: 39
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Post by Ant on Jan 10, 2005 8:42:48 GMT -5
What are 1e Clerics like? I talked briefly about them with MrE, but I'd like to hear others opinions as well.
Specifically: Are they more than just healers? Can they be in the thick of battle and not get cut down like MUs? How is their spell selection?
Also, what stats/skills/spells/whatever are considered vital to a 1e Cleric?
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Post by PapersAndPaychecks on Jan 10, 2005 8:54:15 GMT -5
Personally I believe that, at low levels, the 1e cleric is the most powerful class.
They are second only to fighters in terms of hit points (1d8 as opposed to 1d10). At first and second levels they share the same melee table as fighters. They can wear the same armour as fighters, and they have better saving throws. Their offensive powers do suffer a little because of weapon restrictions (no decent range weapon, a strict reading of the PHB would have it that they can't even use slings... the closest clerics have to a range weapon is the thrown club or hammer.)
In terms of spells, do have the advantage of not needing spellbooks (so a starting cleric has the choice of 12 or more spells, while a starting magic-user only has 4.) A magic-user with high INT who picks up a largish number of spell scrolls will finish up with more spells to choose from than a cleric, though.
Clerics gain bonus spells from having high wisdom. This means that most clerics with a wisdom of 14 or more will have 3 first level spells upon creation, versus a magic-user's one spell.
Finally, clerics gain levels significantly faster than magic-users (there's a spot between levels 9-12 where the magic-user will be slightly higher level. Otherwise between a cleric and a magic-user with similar levels of experience, the cleric will be slightly higher.)
Druids are different to clerics. They have armour restrictions which severely limit their survivability under attack. They get more spells, increased offensive magical power and even faster level-gaining than a cleric to compensate.
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Post by dzubak on Jan 10, 2005 10:04:12 GMT -5
Ant, To piggy back on PnP's post, Clerics really are powerful. Good HPs, good AC, good combat capability, and spell casting. As far as states, wisdom of 15-16 is probably crucial as it gives you good bonus spells for 1st and 2nd level spells. (e.g. a 3rd level cleric with 16 wisdom will have 4 1st and 3 2nd level spells). From there it's all players choice. Strenth, constitution, or dexerity are probably the next logical decision for your next good stat placement depending on the score of course (e.g a 15 str does you no good). It really up to what you want out of your character. A great AC, make Dex your next choice, additional to hit/damage then Str (though a 17 or 18 is required for to hit bonuses and you do not get % Str as a single classed cleric), additional HPs then Con (duh ). As far as weapons restrictions, I know that multi-class Half-orc fighter/clerics are not restricted by the clerics weapon selection. Not sure about Half-elf fighter/clerics but I seem to recall that they must abid by the clerics weapons. Good luck and glad to have you in the game. -d
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Post by The Master on Jan 10, 2005 10:10:00 GMT -5
In general you'll want a high con no matter what class you are, because that determines two very important numbers, system shock and ressurection survival.
If you are going to play cleric, the best race to go for is human.
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Ant
Novice
Posts: 39
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Post by Ant on Jan 10, 2005 10:19:41 GMT -5
Ok, what are the pros/cons of playing a human vs aother race?
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Post by dzubak on Jan 10, 2005 10:38:49 GMT -5
Pros: No level limits All classes available to race No ability adjustments
Con: No infravision No ability adjustments No special racial abilities (e.g. sleep resistance, poison bonuses,etc)
Note: Yes, I placed "No ability adjustments" in both Pros and Cons cause I see it as such. You don't get a bonus so you cannot get a 19 in dex (as an elf) or a 19 in con (as a dwarf) but then again you don't get the penalty associated with the race (-1 con as elf, -1 chr as dwarf) as well.
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Post by PapersAndPaychecks on Jan 10, 2005 13:12:54 GMT -5
There are only three options for a cleric. They are: Humans have a maximum wisdom of 18. They can advance to any level. They have no special advantages or drawbacks. Half-elves also have a maximum wisdom of 18. They can advance to a maximum of level 5 as a cleric. Provided that they have a wisdom score of 13 or more, a half-elf can multi-class as a cleric/fighter, cleric/ranger, cleric/magic-user, or cleric/thief. (I'll put a little paragraph about multi-classing below.) Half-elves receive a few bonus languages, infravision, a small magic resistance against sleep and charm magics, and a bonus to their ability to notice secret doors. There are no stat bonuses. Half-orcs have a maximum wisdom of only 14. They are also the most restricted in terms of maximum level, since they can achieve a ceiling of level 4. Half-orcs may multi-class as a cleric/fighter, a cleric/thief, or a cleric/assassin. Half-orcs receive a few bonus languages and infravision. They also receive a +1 bonus to their strength and constitution, but take a -2 penalty to their charisma. The level limits are certainly the most serious restriction on non-human clerics. The maximum wisdom of 14 is also a problem for half-orc clerics. The drawbacks of being nonhuman certainly outweigh the advantages and the only reasons for playing a nonhuman cleric would be roleplaying considerations or wanting to multiclass. Multiclass clericsAll the multiclass clerics pay a heavy xp penalty for the privilege of being multiclassed. 1. Cleric/fighter: Half elf maximum levels 5/8, half orc maximum levels 4/10. Exceptionally good hit points, armour class and saves. A tough character which can mix it up in melee, the cleric/fighter doesn't have the same weapon restrictions as a pure cleric. I have personally chosen to play a half-orc cleric/fighter. It's a good mix and if you'd like to follow suit, there's no reason why you shouldn't. Extra clerics and fighters are always a bonus to a low-level party, since low-level AD&D is largely about how many clerics and fighters you can bring to bear. 2. Cleric/ranger: Half-elf maximum levels 5/8. See cleric/fighter... at first level, a cleric/ranger has even better hit points. It's not an easy class to qualify for though, needing 13 STR and INT and 14 WIS and CON. You'll need four strong rolls out of 6. 3. Cleric/magic-user: Half-elf maximum levels 5/8. Sacrifices hit points and armour class for spell ability. A cleric/magic-user can't really mix it up in melee, but does have access to a very wide and strong mix of spells. Probably the most versatile and effective caster class in the game. 4. Cleric/thief: Half-elf maximum levels 5/unlimited, half-orc maximum levels 5/8. Sacrifices hit points and armour class, although not as badly as a cleric/magic-user. Cleric/thief is an unpopular class choice because it has the armour restrictions of a thief combined with the weapon restrictions of a cleric. Half-orcs have a dexterity cap as well as a wisdom cap (max 17 DEX) and I can't see why anyone would ever play a half-orc cleric/thief aside from roleplaying reasons. 5. Cleric/assassin: Half-orc maximum levels 4/14. Sacrifices hit points but not armour class. This is a hard class to qualify for, because you're going to need 12 STR, 11 INT, and 12 DEX (minimum for an assassin), and 13 CON (minimum for half-orc) just to be a half-orc assassin, and then you need to have 13 or 14 WIS as well to make a decent cleric... it means you need to roll well for 5 stats out of 6. And if you do make rolls that are that good, you can probably make a more effective character than a cleric/assassin.
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Post by PapersAndPaychecks on Jan 10, 2005 13:27:45 GMT -5
Oh yes, nearly forgot to mention the triple-class option.
6. Cleric/fighter/magic-user: Half-elf maximum levels 5/8/8. Very slow level advancement (a single-class cleric would be level 4 before a C/F/M-U hit level 2.) Has the armour drawbacks of a magic-user which seriously restricts fighting ability. I don't understand why anyone would play one, which is why I forgot about them in my earlier post.
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Post by foster1941 on Jan 10, 2005 13:38:32 GMT -5
Note FWIW that per the PH half-elves cannot become cleric/thieves (this was changed in UA). Also, a cleric/thief is NOT limited to the cleric's weapons, but is limited by the thief's armor. FWIW I agree that this isn't a very attractive choice under the PH rules (it becomes a bit more attractive under UA where more races are eligible to be clerics and all races (not just half-orcs) are allowed to be cleric/thieves).
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Post by foster1941 on Jan 10, 2005 13:45:39 GMT -5
Don't know how this will (or should) affect anybody else's character choices, but I rolled up a character over the weekend -- a human magic-user with a strength score of 7 (thus negative to hit mod and encumbrance mod). On the plus side I've got a 16 charisma (which I plan to use to recruit enough men-at-arms to hopefully allow me to live to 2nd level). MrE, I'll PM you the rest of the details when I get home from work (I actually remember most/all the numbers, but I've got a record of actual rolls, etc. at home in case you want all of that -- as if you'd think I cheated to get that 7 strength! ).
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Post by blackprinceomuncie on Jan 10, 2005 13:54:57 GMT -5
Has the armour drawbacks of a magic-user which seriously restricts fighting ability. I believe multi-class magic-users do not suffer the armor restrictions of the M-U class in 1e. 1e PHB:So, save for the slow level progression, the Cleric/Fighter/M-U is actually one of the best in terms of advantages.
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Post by PapersAndPaychecks on Jan 10, 2005 14:04:22 GMT -5
Good. The party had better include somebody pretty, Foster, cause my half-orc can curdle milk just by looking at it. Foster's quite right about cleric/thieves, pre-UA you're restricted to half-orcs. My bad. Cleric/thief and edged weapons is an interesting question and I'm curious about the source of Foster's information. I'd read the PHB page 32, which states that "Cleric combinations (with fighter types) may use edged weapons" and I originally ruled that since a thief isn't a fighter, the cleric/thief would have the weapon restrictions of both cleric and thief. My player pointed out that this meant (in practical terms) that his only weapon choice was Club, and I agreed that this was unfair. I house-ruled that he had the cleric weapon restrictions but not the thief ones. But Foster's had access to sources I didn't (including the Dragon magazine, which I couldn't get in the UK at the time) so he might very well be aware of a ruling I missed.
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Post by PapersAndPaychecks on Jan 10, 2005 14:08:38 GMT -5
I had believed that elven fighter/magic-users can cast spells in elven chain, but otherwise no magic-user spells in armour. I think the only reference to this in the PHB is the top paragraph of page 33.
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Post by foster1941 on Jan 10, 2005 14:08:44 GMT -5
I believe multi-class magic-users do not suffer the armor restrictions of the M-U class in 1e. Elf and half-elf multiclass magic-users only have armor restrictions if they're multiclassed as thieves (i.e. leather for m-u/thief or ftr/m-u/thief, no armor restrictions for cleric/m-u, ftr/m-u or c/f/m-u). Gnome multiclass illusionists are always limited to leather armor (as both fighter/illusionists and illusionist/thieves).
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Ant
Novice
Posts: 39
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Post by Ant on Jan 10, 2005 14:16:28 GMT -5
What kind of spells and abilities am I giving up to be a non-human? If I can only get to level 5 cleric, I am assuming I am sacrificing the majority of my high level spell casting ability. Am I wrong? How many levels of spells are there, and how many spell levels can I learn with a maximum cleric level of 5?
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