Animals (nuetral good and evil)

[AxeMental]

I haven't played a druid in many years, so it wasn't until my recent reading of some of the PH druid spells that there seems to be some suggestion that animals can be good or evil bent (perhaps NE or NG). While I couldn't imagine a druid charming animals that are good or nuetral bent to go into harms way for there benefit (without some free will) I can see them charming evil bent animals to do such things as charge into orcs, set off traps ahead of the group etc. Is this a fair take?

Another oddity is that the druids seem to care more about trees then the animals that occupy the forests, where did this take come from, historically, LOTR??

[northrundicandus]

AxeMental said:

I haven't played a druid in many years, so it wasn't until my recent reading of some of the PH druid spells that there seems to be some suggestion that animals can be good or evil bent (perhaps NE or NG). While I couldn't imagine a druid charming animals that are good or nuetral bent to go into harms way for there benefit (without some free will) I can see them charming evil bent animals to do such things as charge into orcs, set off traps ahead of the group etc. Is this a fair take?

AD&D Druids see Good and Evil as merely facets of the same stone. Both are necessary to maintain the Balance. Thusly, such a callous usage of Nature's Life would be frivolous unless the Level of the Scales of Balance were at stake.

Another oddity is that the druids seem to care more about trees then the animals that occupy the forests, where did this take come from, historically, LOTR??

AD&D Druids probably perceive Trees as "worth" more because they take soo much longer to replenish themselves. The mouse of the field can easily restore its population after a dire drought. Indeed, the Balance often acts thusly to prevent one group from overtaking another. The trees however, if not tended properly, can be completely wiped out if man and the various humanoids fail to harvest them with respect and planning.

[AxeMental]

North, I understand this idea of nuetral. However, what I'm getting at is that some animals are not true absolute nuetrals.

For instance in Animal Friendship: "...only neutral animals can be attracted, befriended and trained".

So there are evil animals....I never new that.

Also, in the Gord books Gygax suggests druids are used by the forces of good as scouts and woodland spys keeping the civilized world informed of what evil is up to. Tolkeins treated his druid like characters as somewhat good as well. Treants and other inteligent woodland beings are good but befriend druids. Yet, in balance druids are not friendly with any evil woodland beings. I think the idea is that evil (as in monsters and magic) is un-natural energy alien to the prime material while good is unrelated to anything off the prime material and seen as less of a threat to forests etc.

Would a druid just as likely send a good tending animal down a dangerous tunnel as they would an evil tending animal. I don't think so. Nuetral in behavior is what a druid is, yet in their world view I think they tend toward good, perhaps by default (as evil is so destructive and harmful to forrests and wild places).

In any event I think a druid would rather send his thief ahead to look for dangerous traps then a bunch of animals. The notion of killing animals (charm mammal and animal summoning I and II) for a groups benefit seems very undruid to me. I always thought the bit about carring so much for trees came from the use of animals with no apparent concern for there free will or "happyness".

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Are druids vegetarian?

Do they wear leather belts and shoes and armour, or fur-trimmed cloaks? If so, does it matter whether the animal was killed for its hide or whether the skin was cut from an animal that died from other causes?

I'd say that if a druid is prepared to eat meat and wear leather, then he's prepared to permit an animal to be killed for the benefit of a human. Or in the case of some druids, actually to kill one himself.

I think that's fine. I think that druids protect animals in the sense that they act to prevent the extinction of a species, the eradication of habitats, and so on - but they'd happily eat beef, wear leather shoes, and use a charmed animal as shock troops if it suited their purposes.

[northrundicandus]

PapersAndPaychecks said:

I'd say that if a druid is prepared to eat meat and wear leather, then he's prepared to permit an animal to be killed for the benefit of a human. Or in the case of some druids, actually to kill one himself.

I think "Benefit of a human" is a little too open ended for a True Neutral AD&D Druid. Clothing or feeding a human - fine. Animals (good, evil or neutral) sacrificing themselves so that a group of hobgoblins, who have been ravaging a forest with wanton abandon, are routed back to their own lands - dandy. Animals (again, good, evil or neutral) helping a human get more gold in a dungeon - nah.

I also feel that Druids are well within that True Neutral alignment to start whipping human-ass if said Men are disrepecting the wild lands. ;-)

[AxeMental]

Sure druids hunt, eat meat, skin animals, work leather, live off the land, but they don't kill animals for sport only IMO. They don't slaughter, and sending a bunch of wolves down a hallway full of traps would not be very respectful of nature and a bit of a waist. Now, sending down a few thieves who are volunteering is a different story. Even if the wolves volunteer it might be ok. But to force a wolf via charm mammal to be your gaurd...how is that any less evil then some magician charming some villager with a family (kids and wife) to leave and be his personal shield, man servant. Sorry, these spells just seem off if not used with restraint.

For instance, I think a druid would hunt for food for himself and his group, but I don't think he would act as a hunting guide for others who hunt only for sport (such as trophy hunters). Is this impression on druids different from your own?

[AxeMental]

And are there evil animals that would not be effected by animal friendship as is stated in the spell of that name( is EGG talking about the evil squirl who lives in some evil wood, or specific normal animals listed in the MM? The only animal that is evil I can think of in the MM is the worg, but even that seems more like a monster then a normal animal.